Ep 135 - Bridging the Gap: Irwin Hau on Amplifying Public Relations for Website Conversions

Public Relations: The Unsung Hero of Website Conversions

Firstly, let's clear the air: why are we even talking about public relations (PR) in the context of website conversions? Isn't PR all about image building and reputation management? Well, yes, but that's not all it is. So, how exactly does PR tie into website conversions? Let's hear from Irwin Hau himself.

Join myself and Irwin in this latest episode of The PR Playbook Podcast to learn more about website conversions.  Irwin is a private business consultant and Founder of Chromatix, a multi-award-winning web design and conversion agency based in Melbourne, Australia. Since opening shop in 2009, he's gone on to amass over 70 awards and mentions for work in web design and digital solutions.  And be sure to visit Irwin's other business - Conversion Cow.    

Turning Visitors into Customers: The Role of PR

Now, attracting people to your website is one thing. Turning them into paying customers is another ball game altogether. As Hau puts it, "The ultimate goal of PR is to foster trust and build relationships with your audience. Once that's established, conversions are a natural outcome."   In this episode you'll learn Hau's five C's for successful conversions.  

This speaks volumes about the role of PR in website conversions. It's not just about driving traffic; it's about cultivating meaningful connections with your visitors, providing them with value, and ultimately guiding them towards a purchase decision.

However, remember that PR is just one piece of the puzzle. A stellar PR strategy combined with an optimized, user-friendly website and exceptional customer service can make your conversion rates skyrocket.

Let's ponder over this: is getting people to your website enough to drive sales and conversion to customers? Absolutely not! As our conversation with Irwin Hau has highlighted, it takes much more than that.

Hau's perspective provides valuable insights into the complex relationship between PR and website conversions. The crux of the matter is that PR, when harnessed effectively, can boost brand credibility, foster trust, and create a conducive environment for conversions.

So, next time you're strategizing on improving your website conversions, don't just focus on SEO and digital marketing tactics. Consider how a robust PR strategy can tie into and amplify your efforts. After all, in the words of Hau himself, "A good PR strategy can be the missing link between getting traffic and getting conversions."

Ready to start your next PR campaign, then visit our website to see how The Silver Telegram can provide your business with the tactics you'll need to increase brand awareness and create more sales year over year. 

Remember to subscribe to be notified of the next podcast release.  If you enjoyed this podcast, then hit the like button and share it with your friends.  

Transcript

Irwin Hau and Ronjini Joshua Transcript

Ronjini Joshua: Episode 135 Converting through Persuasion with Irwin Hau

Ronjini Joshua: Hello, and welcome to Episode 135. Today, I have with me, Irwin, Hau the founder and creative director of Chromatics and Conversion Cow. Hi, Irwin. How are you? Okay, great,…

Irwin Hau: Good doing very well. Keeping awake giving away.

Ronjini Joshua: even away. So that's half the battle there. So today we're going to talk a little bit about persuasion and…

Irwin Hau:  That is.

Ronjini Joshua: what keeps attention and really how to convert leads on your website and, and, in other ways. So I'd love to hear first a little bit about your background and then we'll kind of dive into a little bit about chromatics conversion cow and and some tips that you might be able to offer the listeners.

Irwin Hau:  Now, lovely. Well, my name is Irwin Irwin as in Steve Irwin, as you can tell the reference, even tells it, I'm from Australia in Melbourne. And so thank you for understand my accent. I come from an added agency background. So I've always grown up in advertising. I did my master's in advertising and so I actually worked for the two top at agencies here in Melbourne, why not and bbdo so claiming Job. So Ron been working for the man. I thought I'd be the man and do my own thing and was actually in the back of the, the end of the GFC. I think it was. Yeah, end of the gfc. Tough time. Not a great time to start business. But hey, you know, I had a bit of a dream gotten by the entrepreneur Bug and I thought I'd jump in to making websites and so I actually teamed up with my best mate. He's still my best mate, those not in the business anymore, but loving to bits and stuff out that we grew up together actually met in church together and stuff for that. And we started this business making three hundred dollar

Irwin Hau: Websites. Can you believe it? $300 I can't even I mean I think our early rates like 300 dollars now or…

Ronjini Joshua: Wow.

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: whatever it is, but but I still remember that first websites, absolutely joy and we kind of just grew from there. And now, it's 2023 and here we are. So yeah, Web design.

Ronjini Joshua: That's very excited. Yeah, I'm if people look at the website, if you go to Chromatics.com.au, I believe. Yeah. If you look at the website itself,…

Irwin Hau:  Yeah.

Ronjini Joshua: it's very eye-catching. I watch some of your testimonials and I mean, I think one of the biggest things, as a startup founder, or someone who's diving into messaging and trying to create some lots of materials that are converting at the same time, right? You're trying to, I mean, the purpose of PR is to really get people to go to your website, but I always tell our clients. I can't navigate what they do after that. Once they get to you, I can get them to the website.

Irwin Hau: 100%.

Ronjini Joshua: But what they, what they do after that is your job. So what what do you find is like kind of like this key elements and I like the idea of incorporating psychology into your website development process. So what do you find are the key elements to like a good website?

Irwin Hau:  Yenn official and I only touch on one. Something you said, there's only one formula you need to know in marketing which is traffic times Conversion, rate, equals customers so PR the fantastic traffic method like AdWords, SEO and all those other fun marketing bits. But like you mentioned if someone's coming to your website and they don't call you or or get in touch with you. Then what is the plan anyway? Well, when you are on the website, what are some tips? So we actually call our five C's conversion framework, and actually stands for capture clarity content, credibility, and close. And if you actually, if that sounds too complicated, let's let's take a step back. Think about the best first date you've ever been on, right? You would have been all dressed to the teas and stuff right there. You soon, they're patiently waiting the person walks through the door. You've got their attention.

Irwin Hau: They as they sit down you, you know, you introduce yourself. Hi. My name's Irwin. And this is what I do and you tell them who you are, what you do. Obviously, you know, there's the food and wines coming and…

Ronjini Joshua: M.

Irwin Hau: stuff, you kind of press into that a little bit more and you kind of okay well you told me, you've run agency, or you've read this book or you're interested in this hobby, tell me more about that. And at the end with your sweaty hands and you know you just you know get nervous the stuff you kind of ask. Hey would you mind going on that second date? Or would you be interested in going out again? I mean, no one pictures and marriage off the bat. What? I just told you is actually not…

Ronjini Joshua:  Right.

Irwin Hau: how I met my missus and stuff for that. But I actually explained the normal human psychology or just how people make decisions which really is capture.

Irwin Hau: Clarity, the contents are credibility to prove what I said was actually true and then close of thoughts. It gets them next phase. So, just think about the best first thing you've ever been on. I used to say first date, but then people would like you can't get these weird reactions. Oh no, I don't remember that. You know? I don't want that one. Best first date.

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah.

Irwin Hau: That's how you should approach your websites because your website. As much as it is a marketing tool, a salesperson it's actually almost it's the same as dating. You're here to get someone's attention and to kind of support them through that process. And let's be honest, how many websites have you been on? They had that big form the memory come to a band. There's a form that's like That's like someone might my partner walking in. I'm dressed, you know, nicely and I just go. Hey marry me, you know? Whoa. When you know that's a little I mean I know I'm pretty forward.

00:05:00

Ronjini Joshua: little aggressive, a little

Irwin Hau:  Just a little bit too forward, you know, sort of thing. So and and everyone is there's one that says everyone's happy to buy. They're just don't be sold to and I think we just need to go through that natural and let's be honest. Emotional connection. First Before we get to that logical connection, then we can actually make that kind of hand connection. And we call our heart head and hands hierarchy and stuff. I always start with the heart then to the head into the neck and stuff that's as simple as that. And so now, no, I had to translate that psychology theory principle into the practical of how we design a website.

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah, I mean, that's I that's really, really smart and it really just kind of goes down like you said to the basics. You, you compared it to a first date. I think that's a great way to do it and I think a lot of people don't realize, you know, you do the same thing you were mentioning, What did you say earlier? You're talking about different mediums, Same techniques and and PR is the same way when we're talking to different reporters, we're putting our best foot forward for that particular reporter and then changing that tone for a different reporter. But the same message comes out of both of those conversations.

Irwin Hau: A hundred percent hundred percent, the techniques are all the same and stuff, no matter what the media may be. PR, you're running an AdWords campaign. You've just done a print ad in the newspaper or website, you know this, there's a couple key base kind of techniques that are The same. I mean making sure you have a strong headline. Knowing how to get some attention in like just a couple of words.

Ronjini Joshua: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Irwin Hau: Oh, and let me tell you about me, blah blah. You know what too long did not read this waiting on. If you cannot say what you do and the value you give on a website in less than 10 words. You really have to rethink what you're all about and…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: suffer that right, you can't just keep waffling on and on and on and like a joke. If I have to explain the joke, it's a bad joke in the same way you explain that headline or…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yes.

Irwin Hau: this is what actually meant by. You know, my wife says it the best she actually says to me, I went What are you trying to say? I've read this long, long line. What are you trying to say?

Irwin Hau: Was just trying to say this, what did you say that in the first place? I was like,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah. Yeah.

Irwin Hau: Oh, okay. And so there's a fun technique. I usually teach my class. I actually call it five words, for my five year olds Actually, when she was five. I said, If you can't say what you do, in five words to my five year old, that she would understand Then I think we're okay. Now she's 10 so 10 words for your 10 year old right then Really. Is it really that? Clear? Because if you can't even explain…

Ronjini Joshua: Right. Yeah.

Irwin Hau: what you do, If you can't even get your teeth, if that PR headline, won't even grab your attention. It's not going to get anyone else's attention in the same breath, If I'm on your website. And I have no idea who you are, what you do. I don't care if you've got all the proof in the world and you know, you got services,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Right.

Irwin Hau: gray prices, right? Whatever it is.

Irwin Hau: I can't get myself first part it's kind of going on that. So think about that first date again, don't you have first date and you can't see me like, you know, quickly keep walking. It's, you know, you've got to get the three up. First of all right. I hope I don't look that bad but you got to get through that first, right with the capture.

Ronjini Joshua: Oh yeah.

Irwin Hau: Because let's be honest, just say I was like this and I'm sitting there really sloppy and…

Ronjini Joshua: Right. Right.

Irwin Hau: stuff, you wouldn't even get to the second, third for Fifth Face. So, step by step,…

Ronjini Joshua: Absolutely absolutely.

Irwin Hau: it's very methodical.

Ronjini Joshua: yeah, I mean I feel like, you know, you're preaching to the choir, I feel like I feel like we, we do try to remind our clients, you know, when you're messaging, you're not messaging to yourself, These people don't know.

Irwin Hau:  Mmm.

Ronjini Joshua: You, you're not drinking like these. People haven't been inundated with the brand or the business for a certain. Number of time. You have to get to the audience that you're looking for. And a lot of people, I think, get into this little bit of a bubble of. Oh, of course. This is the greatest thing since you know, whatever since nutella. Yeah. So they want to, they want to believe that and and it's great. It's good to have belief and what you're…

Irwin Hau: Yeah.

Ronjini Joshua: but I also think, you know, it's really important to have. I don't know. Check your ego at some point and say like Okay no.

Irwin Hau:  Yeah.

Ronjini Joshua: Like you said, I like I like I usually say explaining it to your grandmother but explaining it to your 10 year old works too.

Irwin Hau: Well, I think it's this, if if we can just simplify things it just makes it simple for, for everyone, you know. And unfortunately,…

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah.

Irwin Hau: common sense is so common. That's that's why I have a job, I guess. So we're we're just gonna bring it back to the basics.

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah, hmm. I love that.

Irwin Hau: Keep it simple, we're done. So,

Ronjini Joshua: I love that. So I have a couple of questions and I might come up with some more, but the first questions a little bit kind of out there. So I hopefully you could give me a little bit of insight but Can you tell us a little bit about…

00:10:00

Irwin Hau:  Challenge example.

Ronjini Joshua: what you found out over the years about user habits things that make people leave? Like, what things that we would would we find surprising, like, How much time do you have to capture attention? That kind of stuff, you know, any kind of little things like that, tidbits that might be surprising to people that turn people off.

Irwin Hau: Yeah, yeah, I was described like this. I imagine there's this thing called the annoyance meter and I'm just gonna, I'll use my arm and stuff like because you can actually see me. So this is…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: how it works like a little timer, right? So the annoyance means, this is how the game works, right? The moment you jump on a website, the time it comes down but when you release it, slowly can pick like a clock and goes Think you're gonna get the top and…

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah.

Irwin Hau: when it hits the top we leave right? And this the speed of this, the more noise we get the faster it goes up, right? The moment, I go bang, I leave. Okay. So, I'm on a website. Come down.

Irwin Hau: The moment I saw looking the site loads all my hands off and this Sully's slowly goes this. They didn't actually because we had this natural urgency to just want information real quick. So site doesn't load, quickly can't see anything ding, I'm off, right? I come the messaging isn't clear.

Ronjini Joshua: Yep.

Irwin Hau: Don't know what they do? Have no idea. Doesn't sound like problem. Ding, I come down. I see little figures of images. That look random. It's abstract, it thing gone. I come down a cream,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: all these things but there's no proofful effects of what they're saying. Things I come down but the sun doesn't look so secure because in parts of broken and stupid janky and stuff like being they lead us up.

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: So this is what we have to fight against. It's the combination of all these things.

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: So imagine the site doesn't load. The pictures are pixelated. The copy doesn't read. Well, it's a wall of text. There's no credibility. No proof, no call to action. Don't know where to go and stuff.

Irwin Hau: Literally use gold bam. It just goes straight up, right? Our job.

Ronjini Joshua:  Sure.

Irwin Hau: Is to go come to the website intriguing headline. It actually resets. We can actually reset it by intriguing. Someone. Whoa, that videos really cool.

Ronjini Joshua:  Oh,

Irwin Hau: Oh, that tester. Oh okay. Okay. And as long as they get off somewhere, cool to actually great jump to the good because I already left now. You…

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah.

Irwin Hau: and if we kind of just picture that what would annoy no, no, I customer what would annoy you. What we're always me.

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: What makes me jump on websites and so the usual suspects were playing a family feud and stuff. I top. Number one, answer is Your site doesn't even load because I don't care how good the content is,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Right. Yeah.

Irwin Hau: it doesn't even load, right? So good hosting making sure that it's runs quickly. That's why Google pushes those site speeds much of the SEO purposes, but for user experience, right?

Ronjini Joshua:  Right.

Irwin Hau: Say your website has the best images and stuff for that but I'd still don't know what value you give remember it's articulated on message right? It could be a layout issue. Know what all the information is there. But it's kind of like Have you ever had a like the chef a chef with all the right ingredients but that's put in the wrong order. Now as long as we land Yeah,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah. Like what do I look at first? What do I look at first? Yeah.

Irwin Hau: it's like a buffet you know, when I go to a buffet war analysis processes, it's foamy goodies.

Ronjini Joshua:  Me.

Irwin Hau: Oh I don't know what to do, right? But it's all good food. I went to a lovely buffer the other time…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: but um, times I think about that and it's all the combination of all these things that we just need to make sure. Hey, let's not annoy someone and…

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah.

Irwin Hau: let's just reset it all. Even slow it down.

Irwin Hau: You can slow down with intrigued, you can slow it down with emotional elements, that kind of draw someone back in because you're utilizing words, or numbers or statistic. Okay, timonials in our logos of awards. A partner is a conversation is associations, leveraging off other goodwill things, you know, Even a smiley face. You know, can change like an image or something smiling as opposed to just a blank abstract object can actually make a difference…

Ronjini Joshua:  Sure.

Irwin Hau: because remember a motion first Logic. Second Action, third.

Ronjini Joshua:  Mm-hmm. Yeah. No. Well that actually leads nicely into my second question. You know. Because people are getting less and less patient, more and more distracted. How can you keep up your website? I mean, like how I guess my question would be I like to do redo my websites pretty much every year. But you know, what is the pace where you can manage an update? Do you have to continuously be updating your website? Like How frequently do you have to do that? So that you can attend to these shifting like needs of people.

Irwin Hau: Again, official. I always say and always ask the question. How often do you get your teeth checked? How often do you get your card service and stuff for that? It's embarrassing. And I had one guy said, I have my teeth checked. I'm like, and like something he was like talking about douche. And, you know, and so the reason why I ask is this You don't have to get your car serviced, you could just buy the cars I'm done.

00:15:00

Ronjini Joshua:  Sure.

Irwin Hau: But I don't know about you but if we just think of the websites, it's just a check-off. I've done listening.

Ronjini Joshua:  Mm-hmm.

Irwin Hau: Then that's fine, there's nothing wrong. But if you're perspective is your website is actually your strongest sales tool. And the more I refine it with the 1% is and keep fixing it, I'm going to get a higher conversion rate. So if you have that kind of progress kind of attitude

Irwin Hau: The answer should actually be, You're always updating your website. You're always tweaking. It's like doing that kind of A/b testing and stuff. Oh actually. Was that headline Good? Maybe I'll just change that one. Maybe just A/b test that. Well, maybe that you need to know. Let me have a rethink because the more attention we can get That's our currency at the end of the day, attention to action.

Ronjini Joshua: Right.

Irwin Hau: And so to me you should always build your website for growth. So in some way, I don't just buy a house. If I to say See my missus and I say, We had no kids on it, just buy a one bedroom house. We build with room to grow. Just in case we have one child two channel. Like once you had the two, then you might want to go a bit bigger and stuff. It all right, you don't just fit just enough. And so same way when you build your website,

Irwin Hau: And feel free to do this yourself. If I was to build my website for now and a little bit of future, what would look like and what could I change without having changed the whole structure every time because change your whole websites, very expensive, You might go.

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah.

Irwin Hau: Hmm. Maybe I'll allow myself to change images to keep this looking fresh. Once change the words here, all might have something that I can't keep up to date. Like the testimonial bar, you know, I think you mentioned on my websites and stuff for that and feel free it, anyone listening to check it out but there's some videos, right? I can update those videos all the time. So kind of feels fresh though. It's still the same science, same sections but just different words, different content. So, content is easy to keep things up to date, that's why we ask especially web developers. Not the hard code, all those things because it just makes it hard for you to keep things fresh. So,

Ronjini Joshua:  I mean, that's the other thing is like, you know, depending on what platform you end up using, if you're using WordPress, I remember. Well, I work on one of our clients sites on WordPress. I update the blog and things like that. At one point, I couldn't do anything. Everything I did broke the website. So, after a while, they like did something and they made some changes, so that it would be easily done. And and I could just update the blog very easily. But yeah, I mean, that's one of the things is, like, not to have someone. Do your website that's gonna do something where you can't update it at some point or somebody else can updated at some point. I think that's a tricky thing. Sometimes that does happen where you get stuck in this little problem.

Irwin Hau: Yeah, and I think of the other day just let's just keep everything. How does it? See think of that yet. I think just keep everything basic because as I'm just processing on this, I'm just thinking, You know what? Keep a website, really simple, really basic, don't over the word don't,…

Ronjini Joshua: Mm-hmm.

Irwin Hau: and here's the keyword intentional being intentional with every part on the website. I mean it kind of kind of like my outfit. All my my wife is saying If you don't need the square pocket, don't don't edit. I just get rid of it and stuff. You know, if you don't need don't don't have all this bling, you know, those people who put on everything they have like so here when this is more,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: and if it doesn't sort of purpose, get rid of it, That's what?

Ronjini Joshua: No I I agree with that, that's absolutely true. Well can we talk a little bit about your conversion cow because I'm interested in what you were mentioning and…

Irwin Hau:  Mmm.

Ronjini Joshua: and we haven't talked about it yet and I think it's a very cool little tool that you've come up with. So could you give us a little bit of insight on that?

Irwin Hau:  In official. So again, taking the idea that your website is your best sales person, right? The thing I've noticed and where the idea came from was Have you ever noticed by the way, that all marketing? Maybe, PR, AdWords, SEO, newspaper ad, you know, Billboard whatever, even having a business card and an expo or seeing someone a networking meeting. It always tries back to one thing your website, so your websites has to be of their cell tool. But if I said to everyone, Hey, can you your update your websites? With these five C's, and his heart here in hands thing and and yeah, that's overwhelming. All right. Not only is that overwhelming, it's expensive.

Irwin Hau: Because let's be honest, I think the average, you know, Web, developer, nowadays, 150 to 300, you know, per hour for agencies and stuff like maybe even more for high-end, maybe in a lower, if you're freelancer, totally understand. But when you add up the dollars and stuff on that, you know, for working days seven and a half hours, that's a bit of money, right? And you're not gonna be making that many changes…

Ronjini Joshua: Hmm.

Irwin Hau: because changes to take time, it's kind of like building a house. You don't run wasn't built in a day house wasn't built in a day either, you know? So, let's see. So we after running this service based agency for so long have decided and have worked out. We can actually productize what we do. And so, what we want to do at the end of the day was take our secret sauce, put it all in the one area. And then after that, put it as a pop out on sun. So what we've done with conversion cars, we can actually create a little pop out pages that appear on any.

00:20:00

Irwin Hau: Page of your website. Can be built by anyone and stuff like that and you can actually feature sales messages and not only do feature sales messages, you can actually feature customize sales message. So they're selling, this is change as you go to different parts of your websites. So where the idea came from was actually, I was actually in Hong Kong when I was young and walking to a department store with my father, A lady. I don't know if she can just kind of just like, the homeless seems kind of just drifted out like this and said, Hi, welcome to our department store young man. I was maybe I was, was that 10 year old at the time? A young man,…

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah.

Irwin Hau: you seem pretty sporty. I wasn't by the way, you seemed pretty sporty. The sports equipment is on that side and we've got 10% off today on sports equipment. She didn't come to my father and said Gentleman, I love your suit.

Irwin Hau: Did you know gentleman, suits are buy one, get one free today and…

Ronjini Joshua: It's the very proactive sales lady.

Irwin Hau: stuff and it's on this level. She then kind of Or she was wonderful actually and…

Ronjini Joshua: This is good.

Irwin Hau: then she kind of just hovered and faded away like home and Simpson into the into their head, if you know that, that one,…

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah.

Irwin Hau: right? So she's like, that means, she's she wasn't intrusive, she was very gentle. She said what she needed to each one of us and then walked away. Imagine she had actually sits my father. Hey, I think he needs some sports equipment. Well, imagine she's actually said to me, Hey Irwin, as a 10 year old, buy one get one free suits,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Right.

Irwin Hau: the wrong, message to the wrong person. Even at the right time is going to be useless. And so what I learned is if we can deliver Like that lady.

Irwin Hau: The right message to the right person at the right time, you have a high chance to convert. And so, we've now created this tour that allows you to do that. And you can also set up some special conditions so that, you know, if you come back to a website message, if you've got a certain particular time or show different message, if you go specific page or even day over the week and stuff like that, it will show you different message.

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah.

Irwin Hau: And if we can do that, and like you said before we have the attitude of not about us but someone else

Ronjini Joshua:  Yes.

Irwin Hau: And have those messages right there. So it doesn't say, Hey we want to sell you, some sports equipment, but hey be the best in basketball with the latest blower and however it speaks to me and I'm looking at home.

Ronjini Joshua: Right.

Irwin Hau: That's so me. You know you know, like a move towards the light. I think we're in the right place. So it's really customized pop-ups that appear on any page of your website to help you convert increase your chances of getting leads on. That's it.

Ronjini Joshua:  It is, is there a rule to limiting the number of pop-ups because I can imagine anybody could be popping up anywhere.

Irwin Hau: I know some people who go get Cray Cray with the rules and stuff for that but we I mean there is a set limit and stuff for them to the whole system. So this is not like no I mean and…

Ronjini Joshua: Pop-up City.

Irwin Hau: we try to the main one. The main ones actually based on number impression. So when you sound with a plane with us, it's monthly, there's no contracts. But what happens is you have a set number of hits on your site and obviously the more you have a set numbers are saying, You know, 5,000 10,000 hits and stuff. If you exceed that you get to the next plan, you know, sort of thing. So because we don't want more like Ajay or…

Ronjini Joshua:  Okay.

Irwin Hau: someone else target to have, you know, mean people go to on And a small business unit has like hundred people go to their website. They should be anything good now,…

Ronjini Joshua: Right. Right. No, I guess more.

Irwin Hau: right? You know, you're going to keep it.

Ronjini Joshua: What I'm talking about. As a person who's creating a site, who wants to use the, what pop-ups should should I limit the number of pop-ups?

Irwin Hau:  Hmm.

Ronjini Joshua: I incorporate into what I'm doing. Just to not annoy people.

Irwin Hau: Yeah, I think it's a bit of a good. Yeah, no I think it's a bit of a goldilocks moment. I call it. I mean you don't too much or too little you want that kind of just, right? Because there is a point where that, even the lady, the Homer Simpson lady, who kind of hovers in a even, she can get really annoying after a…

Ronjini Joshua: Right.

Irwin Hau: If she like every single, it's like, it's like, okay, I get it. I get it, you know? And so I would be test, which again, you can do in our system or you can just test different messages, different number of conditions. I wouldn't turn on everything that's like me, trying my best suit and where all of them and go out, you know, and just one suit at a time, try that outfit, didn't work, you know, take it off next one. Now we go. So,

Ronjini Joshua:  To me, this sounds like a full-time job, which scares me how much time should someone be investing and really managing and kind of catering. This experience to have the best user outcome.

00:25:00

Irwin Hau: My my answer to this is a question, which is how important. And again,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: just talking about websites being a sales person or sales tool how important is closing and converting for you on a website. The truth is too many people spend, so much money on the marketing side, getting people their websites spending money, on PR SEO, and words,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: social, whatever it is. Not realizing that the issue has never been this cycle, design is actually great. It's expensive too by the…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah, yes. Uh-huh.

Irwin Hau: because you're paying perm one for per campaign or whatever it is. This song is actually just once off so just rather than seeing it as marketing and websites, let's just see it as water. And a leaky bucket. So, my question is, how much time do you spend on fixing the holes in the bucket? First? Before you get more water…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: but it's easy getting the water like just give us get the front, sure.

Irwin Hau: But you see these holes? Yeah, they're not going away. So if you like so you gotta try twice as hard, that's expensive. This is once off.

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah. Yeah.

Irwin Hau: or at least, you know, not as frequent as that some Peaks,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Fix the hole first. Take, fix the hole.

Irwin Hau: the leaky bucket first, then get more water and if you can upgrade this and do that. Well, You'll be swimming in the water, so yeah.

Ronjini Joshua: I wanted to look at it. What, what do you think are? Like, the top things that I should the kind of the top things that I should be looking at? To improve the,…

Irwin Hau: Cool. So some practical terms.

Ronjini Joshua: you know, user experience. Yeah, practical things.

Irwin Hau: Yeah, some practicals again, let's do this. And and for those who are listening and stuff, let's just take a moment to just open up a website. Any website your website? My website, whichever one is I do prefer, you know, websites. You can actually analyze it or even your competitors to, by the way. So now you've got your websites open,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Right.

Irwin Hau: you're having a look at it. So before you even scroll up and down and it's just opened Do they get your attention? And is it clear? On assuming it's your website. Is it? Are you clear with who you are? What you do? That's it. Let's not go any further who you are and what you do. I have too many people come to me with abstract backgrounds of sunsets and cityscapes or inspirational words. You know. No our strength is yours or you know some like words that let's be honest

Ronjini Joshua: Our strength is yours.

Irwin Hau: Don't really mean too much. Yeah. Like…

Ronjini Joshua: I love it. I love it.

Irwin Hau: what does that even mean?

Irwin Hau: Right. You know you know, you know our dreams are your dreams, you know, like great, thank you. but my dream is to have a really good sales website anyway, for Is it clear the moment you come to your websites? If not you've got to change your message that's the first one, okay? Okay, scroll up and down the websites. Say It's your website or your competitors. Number number two doesn't look just generic, does it feel like any other websites? And so here's the game, I want you to play. Let's go back to the top of your website. I want you cover your logo, it's covering

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah. Yeah.

Irwin Hau: Or imagine taking your competitor. Assuming you have a competitor, there's logo and…

Ronjini Joshua: I like this. Yeah.

Irwin Hau: bring it on top of your logo. That's actually look like their website. I mean if the images are so generic the words are generic, the words are sold,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Okay.

Irwin Hau: you know, top levels, I will say you're a plumber and you're just going to wear the best plumber and we'll come in everyone cleans the same thing. You know, we're professional and on time and on service which is whatever and it says Is it different and unique enough that it represents you? So are you being Like the best in something or…

Ronjini Joshua: Mm-hmm.

Irwin Hau: you just like everyone else. So are you standing up? Number three. That's your website. Give you confidence. Now, I've do a really funny question. Would you call yourself? But would you contact would…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah. Yeah. I

Irwin Hau: which I even pers are you in persuasion yourself? Or did you just go? Now, I just take the bath to my web developer time you get into the content. I got them content.

Ronjini Joshua: Yes, I I always tell people when they're doing email.

Irwin Hau:  If the website,

Ronjini Joshua: Same thing, right? Right.

Irwin Hau: Yeah. Would you open would you open that email?

Ronjini Joshua: If you're would you open the email?

Irwin Hau: Would that headline? Get your attention if it doesn't Right? Because, of course,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: you'd love what you do. If you love what you do and you still don't open it and you still don't engage or interact. Imagine that guy or girl who doesn't know you as well. And actually doesn't really care about you. Let's be honest. So, I know it sounds harsh but no one actually cares about your business and what you do,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: what you are. They have a problem that they just want solved and…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yep.

Irwin Hau: there's wondering, Can you solve their problem? And if you can wonderful, let's talk and assuming that they get along with, You know, you like you trust you, you know, finances are there and the price is right, sort of thing, right? But it's really better business and…

00:30:00

Ronjini Joshua:  Right. Everything lines up.

Irwin Hau: the fourth one. I just want to say is personalization. if you're using stock photos,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Hmm.

Irwin Hau: Your competitor could be using the same image.

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: You will actually look generic and if you was trying to tell someone that you are just generic then so be it. But if you say to me, I am about customer service. And we care about people. And you're using stock images to say this. That's a contradiction. We need to be and…

Ronjini Joshua: Mmm.

Irwin Hau: here's the word in life. When all of that consistency. It's about consistency. So if I say I'm professional,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Right.

Irwin Hau: And professional and I am professional. At least look professional. But I am when I chose the stock image with a guy in a suit and it looks like, but he's talked about, you know, your number one in service. You're always here to. You can always pick up the phone, talk to someone. That's not a someone. It's got a thank you manage by a guy who's just an actor. Not.

Ronjini Joshua: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Irwin Hau:  So the believer, you know, the believability, if that's even a word stuff is, it's not there. It's kind of disconnect. And once that's broken, we're here to build trust, not disconnected and stuff. So all these different trust factors and my my final one is and final two. Sorry is. Do you have any proof? Of every claim you make. So I don't care if you say. I'm the best in the world, then prove you're the best. Are we the we're the top lawyers in this town. Prove it. You can see what you want is to claim until you prove it. So that's why people use awards. Accreditations case studies. Testimonials all these visual social proofs. And again, if you actually look at Dr, Robert Cialdini, who wrote the book, Persuasion and Influence. Social proof is where it's at when it comes to persuasion and indicating that trust. So definitely that and my last one is this.

Irwin Hau:  Imagine if I'd gone in that first date and I did all the right things. I listened to her and I got the suit, I'm looking sharp. I ask the questions explain why I was I gave my value, I had all the proof and stuff and at the end of the date are, You know what, I want to bobbin beyond. I, even I paid for the meal, I drove the person's home and stuff for that. And then I just walked off. And when you forgot the last step,

Ronjini Joshua: Yes, I forgot to ask for the second date.

Irwin Hau: You didn't answer the second date, you know, ask for the number. Did you What was it all for inside? My last one which actually sometimes is actually should be the first one. Where you call to actions? Have you actually asked someone?

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: Have you invited someone to do something? Phone number email. Form a callback anything. And I'm not just asking one option. Imagine going to date and you said to me, I said, Are you free Friday? You got no. Okay, cool. No, no, no. Like look what I said, anything Monday morning, how about breakfast on Sunday?

Ronjini Joshua: Mm-hmm.

Irwin Hau: You've got to eat sometime, you know, sort of thing. How about pick you up from work? Like you come with options, right? And so,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: with those call actions, Don't just go away when I've already got that. Like, I asked me. How was your collections? They got down there? There.

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: What's you just even puts on one option and I had a bit of a chat with a friend of mine. He was a conversion specialist and we had this laugh. What if the person's an extrovert and you gave me an email? One of the introvert, but you only gave me my phone number. What if I'm a detailed person but you didn't actually give me anywhere to write. Who tell me some?

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah.

Irwin Hau: I mean so my question is not have our call to action. I'm having I'm saying have multiple call actions because you have no idea if the person that you're talking to has lots of information. Is brief as a bear or they're super detailed as a deal, you know, sort of thing and…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: stuff like, which one are they? Are they extrovert, they're just what I ramble on for next hour. Or there's got nothing to say. I need a website in time. No. Have you catered for all of it? Oh no, we only have this one. Well, you've excluded that side.

Ronjini Joshua: Mmm.

Irwin Hau: now, this analysis with that side,

Irwin Hau: And I'm saying, so there's an ad here in in Australia, that talks about target. There's a taco ad about soft shells and hard shells. I don't know if you know that one one minute. Anyway, there's a, there's a point where the scale goes, why don't have both soft show and hard shell tacos,…

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah.

Irwin Hau: and everyone she is. And because, yeah, we should have everything and so the same breath, let's not have one call to action or another. Let's have all of them.

Ronjini Joshua:  Yeah. Yeah.

Irwin Hau: But do it in a way that doesn't look like. I mean we don't want to look like neon signs going well, pick this. No click that to this do that, you know, just be tasteful about it. But let's have multiple call to actions that are clear concise and prominent which is really what conversion count is that it's hard. We're non-intrusive way that hopefully, like the homeless Simpson lady just kind of just blends in coming in and out without being too annoying. So that's it.

00:35:00

Ronjini Joshua: Very cool. Well, I'm gonna try conversion cow. You've used sold me and we weren't even talking about that…

Irwin Hau:  Yeah, thank you.

Ronjini Joshua: but though this is been awesome. So where can people find you and learn a little bit more about what you guys do as a website development company and as and, of course, conversion cow.

Irwin Hau: Yeah. Now official, well, for those who want to connect with me, like I said, my name is Irwin Hauer Irwin and Steve Irwin. How is in Hau, feel free to touch base with me on LinkedIn. Let me know where you heard that you heard from this podcast. Love to connect and say hi and feel free to check out our websites, chromatics being our flagship company. It's been 14 years now actually but see h. R o m. A t I x Comm dot AU and for our software conversion, cows or conversion co in v E, r s I o n cow is in the Blue Cow CEO W.com. So milk your website for more leads or beef up your website. You know,…

Ronjini Joshua: Oh nice.

Irwin Hau: I thought that one before and stuff for that and, yeah, look forward to connecting for those who are my own consulting just to help assist businesses. Grow businesses, that sort of thing, which is Irwin Hauer.com, feel free to jump on that as well. That's pretty much.

Ronjini Joshua: Interview. I think I've learned a lot about websites. I'm always curious about how to make improvements. So this is a lovely way to get that information.

Irwin Hau: Fantastic. And if anybody anyone's ever curious and goes, Hey, do you mind just checking out my websites and stuffer? Yeah. Feel free to hit me up and stuff. More than happy to give a couple minutes. Just to kind of give you the obvious ones and stuff and go from there,…

Ronjini Joshua: Yeah. Thank you so much.

Irwin Hau: so yeah. Okay. Thank you.

Ronjini Joshua: All right. Well, we'll talk to you guys next time and keep on listening. Thanks.

Irwin Hau:  Bye.

Ronjini Joshua:  Okay, great. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Irwin Hau: Thank you so about those pop-ups. I turn off all my pop-ups. Did you see any pop-ups?

Ronjini Joshua: I didn't see him.

Irwin Hau: Come, good.

Ronjini Joshua: No. No, we're

Irwin Hau: I don't know where they come from. Actually the annoys me actually. Wow, you know, so No PC.

Ronjini Joshua: Are you have a Mac? Oh okay. Maybe that I don't know. I was gonna say I don't have any pop-ups you can mac. You can manage them on the Mac. You could turn them off, but You're living that PC life.

Irwin Hau:  Yeah. Yeah.

Ronjini Joshua: So I can't tell you anything.

Irwin Hau: Can't leave. Oh yeah, so totally understand. So here's…

Ronjini Joshua: Well, thank you again.

Irwin Hau: it is. So Yeah.

Ronjini Joshua: This is really awesome and yeah, I love your websites. So I, I might have to hit you up in a little bit.

Irwin Hau:  You know, let's have a chat and stuff, and if I can't help, I'm happy to point You the right direction and or at least give you some tips as well. So too easy. To.

Ronjini Joshua: All right. Great. Well thank you Irwin and you're 135. So you'll be live on June 30th, Tuesdays are the days that everything comes out and then all your links will be in the show notes anyway so

Irwin Hau:  Yeah, and I'm for sure. What do you normally post it, seriously?

Ronjini Joshua:  So, we use buzz sprout, but it's on Spotify, Pandora, Amazon, apple podcasts. So, it's pretty much everywhere. Yeah, I think that's, no. I think there's a few more that I'm missing. But, you know, there are all, it's all over. Most. I think we get most downloads from Apple Podcasts though. Yeah. Yeah.

Irwin Hau: so, Look at nothing. Thank you for that. Really appreciate it. Thank you for your time.

Ronjini Joshua: And then we'll also be creating some, We usually create some audio snippets and things like that. So, if you want any of the raw like audio, I'm happy to send it over, once he cleans it up and makes it nice. Yeah. All right,…

Irwin Hau: Now, that would be great. Actually, if you could do that, I'd definitely take you off on that, okay? Thanks one.

Ronjini Joshua: sounds good. All right. Talk to you soon. Bye.

Irwin Hau: Have a good one. Bye.